OK, I have a complaint about the way most people argue. They start out with seemingly good intentions, and what appears to be a pro-problem-solving approach, but when the stakes get higher they just want to “win,” NOT solve the problem. I understand that solving the problem usually involves BOTH people meeting in the middle, and this means egos must be in check and all true intentions revealed. How come most people don’t view it this way? Why do they get defensive and competitive? This disconnect really pisses me off. Do people need to take a class on arguing? Here’s the way it usually goes: they start off by strongly and logically arguing a specific point, supporting that point, giving reasons and ideas in favor of it. Great, right? Wrong! Because when you actually address their point, ask questions about their point, bring up your reasons why you don’t agree or offer suggestions, (ahem, you know, try to solve the fucking problem) they’ll bring up other, marginally related problems. Every time I give a solution, people with this affliction literally bring up another problem without acknowledging the solution I gave to the first one.
What’s up with that? Are they trying to get me off track by distracting me from the original point? LOL…yeah, good luck. I call that “subject jumping.” Along with ignoring suggestions, they’ll also avoid answering questions. What’s really funny is when I just ask questions like, “Why does that bother you? How does that make you feel? What changes would you like to see happen? How can I make it better?” In return, they’ll ask, “Why are you doing this?” as if I am instigating or undermining them by wanting more information about what their fucking problem is. Ugh! HELLO, I’m trying to HELP you!
I am convinced these people are either crazy, spoiled or insecure (or all 3). They don’t want to actually SOLVE the problem. Perhaps solving it involves admitting they’re wrong or illogical. Solving it means maybe they have to give just a little and they are, by nature, a “taker.” I can recall being in hour long “arguments” with various people and walking away thinking, “oh my god, nothing got done, that was a complete waste of time.” I can recall actually pleading with them to please NOT change the subject until we resolve this topic and begging them to just answer my questions first before moving on. All they can say is that I am being condescending or that I’m impossible! What!?
I guess their deflective tactics work because they’ve been getting results this way their entire lives. They’re smart enough to change the subject and distract people. They’re smart enough to know if they are unreasonable for a long enough time the other person will get exhausted and give up. But they’re not conscious to any of this, which is why I think they’re not so smart after all, and why I don’t fall victim to this behavior. Also, that’s why all the crazy/spoiled/emotionally immature people I have ever argued with end up feeling condescended to. It’s not because I am actually condescending; it’s because I am one of the few people that actually makes them accountable and doesn’t let them get away with their bullshit. They’re not used to this and it terrifies them, a typical reaction for insecure people. So instead of reflecting and questioning their own motivation and tactics, they’ll freak out and resort to blaming my approach so they can feel better about themselves.
I actually love to debate and to analyze people. They have no idea what they’re getting into when they get into one of their bullshit circles of illogic with me. I feel bad for these emotionally inept morons, but not bad enough to let them off the hook. I know that sounds harsh, but really can’t we just grow up and debate intelligently? The saddest part is that I have never been able to help most of them; at least they’ll never admit that to me. Their pride and ego are so big that no one can. They surround themselves with people who perpetuate and accept this behavior.
Maybe you know a person like this or maybe you are this kind of person. If this is you, please think about your goal(s) before you argue. Do me a favor and post a comment and tell me what you think triggers this behavior in you or in others. If you know someone like this please direct them to this blog so they can see what a colossal jackass they are – and change! |
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truth•a•hol•ic (trüth´ë´hôl´ik) n. 1 The relentless pursuit of uncovering and exposing the hidden meaning and true intentions of others through rationalization and analysis. 2 Having or showing strong reasoning skills and applying them in a quest for truth. 3 A cleverly constructed blog site containing witty dissertations about the truth in which each blog is appropriately titled with a line from a song and accompanied by a cute illustration. 
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You may or may not be offering suitable solutions to these problems you’re discussing, but your self righteous attitude that your solutions could be the only possible “correct outcome” and your superiority complex both shine through so brightly that it’s no wonder people feel looked down upon. You’re not going to “let them get away with their shit”? They are insecure, inept morons? Please! Stop the name calling and realize there are many differing opinions in this world – not yours alone!
Mary-My point is that the other person doesn’t even hear the solutions being offered. All they hear is that they are wrong. They may NOT be wrong they may just be off topic or not communicating there point well or be so consumed with winning they miss the whole enlightening affect arguing can have. This makes it difficult to solve the problem. I actually am very good at putting my ego aside when it’s time to solve a problem. When it’s time to bitch on my site I may get a little critical. I think it’s better to do it here and I think this is the correct forum to bitch about people. Sorry that you don’t.
Something happens to me when I argue/debate, I become more logical and am compelled to stick to the subject and talk about both parties weaknesses and strengths and see how that admission can help solve the problem. I display this behavior in my replies to “insulting” blog comments. I rarely get defensive, emotional or competitive. I’m not insulted by your comment or others. I try to see why the person feels that way and address it. I make it a point to stick to the subject.
Speaking of which, you start out by saying that I may or may not be offering suitable solutions to people then you support the latter. You’re making the leap in logic that the way I express myself in my blog is an indication of how I approach solving problems, when in fact I describe how I solve problems clearly in my blog. To further support my point I happen to have examples of the way I “argue” in all of my replies to my commenter’s that disagree with me. If you read the “Im gonna get myself connected” blog comments you’ll see I do the opposite of what your accusing me of. Mary if you want to criticize my blog and tell me that I am too critical and come off as a bitch that’s one thing but to tell me that my blog is a reflection of how I argue is so scattered and reactive. I think you should read the many examples on this site of how I argue and then give an opinion on it. You’re actually supporting my point by NOT really support yours and being all over the map.
I will began my rant with one of my favorite quotes which speaks volumes of my opinions on this particular subject. (Don’t agree with me??? Oh, so ya want to argue , huh???)
“Here in America, we are descended in blood and spirit from revolutionists and rebels-men and women who dare to descent from accepted doctrine. As their heirs, may we never confuse honest dissent with disloyal subversion.”
Dwight D. Eisenhower
As a people, by and large, I believe that quite unfortunately, we have lost our ability to argue constructively. By this I mean to say that we seems to take personal affronts to having our opinions challenged at all. I really don’t know at what point this happened here in this country but sadly, it runs rampant. Don’t believe me-just pick up any newspaper editorial section or Sunday morning news commentary show. People are regularly attacked and quite personally to boot for their opinions-right, wrong, or indifferent.
It used to be that people’s differences is what brought perspective and insight to the forefront. Nobody wants to ever be wrong or guided anymore. everyone thinks that they have all of the answers. Quite simply-none of us do.
The really saddest part is that we all stop growing as people with this attitude.
Anyhoo…should be a good exchange here on this. Great subject BTW1
S
People convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still.
Steve D, It’s never been about who’s right or wrong. It’s always been about ego. Those rare diplomats in history were successful in conveying their points not by telling people that it is so, rather they gently led people to make the same conclusions they had. History is full of people who dropped this ball going back to the beginning of civilization.
Everyone should read Ben Franklin’s Autobiography. There’s a very good reason he’s one of only two notable men on our currency who was not a president.
& Mary, try to relax a little. My God, you are being what you profess to not like about Sherrie. Who hurt you?
Steve D and Johnny Tackle-
I wish I could’ve been around in those days when people let their intellect and logic guide their decisions.
I am constantly looked at like I’m fucking nuts when I reply to someones point in an argument with “so what are your true intentions with that point?” or “What is the reaction you were hoping for from me because I’m confused?” I also am floored that when people debate about “topics” this one being about “How people argue” they quickly personally attack the person rather than attack the topic and the points! Like Mary did above…it’s like ok, so you disagree with my OPINIONS about arguing and now I’M self-righteous and have a superiority complex?
The art of debating is beautiful when it’s respected. Being able to hear the other persons point, put your ego aside and grow form their opinions is an art and a skill.
S
A rogerian style argumentative approach is best for coming to a ‘middle ground’ agreement. A toulmin approach is much better for affirming your side’s beliefs.
I encounter this behavior whenever I discuss Palestine with Jewish-Americans who are progressive, yet in denial. They deny the way Israel victimizes Palestine, and insist the land is theirs even tho it was stolen via a Zionist-imposed U.N. mandate. – G. Beres
Woo Hoo Go get ‘em Sherrie! I love the fire in ya!
Remember Sherrie those wrapped up in themselves make little packages, so don’t expect a lot when your trying to “help” someone in that mental state! They are their own worst enemy
Great minds discuss ideas, mediocre minds discuss events, little minds discuss people,
and dont lower yourself to their levels by “naming” them that is a trait of “theirs”
And you cant argue wit a madman….
FYI Sherrie in a musical note, I don’t know the name of the song of this topic, and I didnt get your reply to the musical question i sent to you in a prior emai to you, the artist name was Van Morrison the song Wavelength..
Hey Dr. Kevin that is my favorite quote..I just heard Earl Nightingale say it like, 4 weeks ago. Now I’m hearing it again. It really hit home with me and put into perspective when I’m happiest. I really love being around “idea” people. This blog is about the idea of being better communicators and respecting the art of debate. I hope people get that when they read it and not get caught up in the criticisms.
You make a fine point, truthaholic. Just in the span of our lifetimes, the public relations industry has shifted the concept of debate far away from its origins of “petitio principia” when one side wrote all their premises on a chalk board so the other side could see if they indeed agreed with them, to the popularity contests and B O’reily screaming “Cut her mike, cut her mike, NOW”.
For a modern version of something approaching honest debate, every Wednesday CSPAN has “Prime Ministers Questions” in which both houses of parliment get to ask pretty much anything they want to the PM. Of course it is rife with tricks of debate, and it is still a popularity contest about who got “owned” by this or that comment, but it at least is not bound by commercial TV-host-driven-cut-her-mike format of our beloved media.
This election cycle particularly highlights how public opinion is driven by emotional emphasis–not logic or reason. One comment, made with good intention towards regular people gets looped 24/7 with suggestive commentary, bounded by questions like “why is he such an asshole?” While the completely idiotic stumblings of a doddering fool on very serious issues of the complexities of foreign affairs pass as “cute” or are not noticed at all.
Yes, I blame much of the dysfunction you point out on the media–mostly television. It has “special interests” writ large in the form of the conglomerates that profit from our zombified viewers who, suddenly, after a few hours feel the “need” to rush to the store and get a snickers bar and hose themselves down with a couple cans of Axe body spray. (Chicks love that stuff. I find the more I wear, the more pussy just throws itself right at me. That’s why I spend every red cent on body spray.)
Anyway, your post hit a particular nerve with me (like you couldn’t tell). I’m what many people dismissively call a “conspiracy theorist” for believing some things that, for instance, certain agencies funded by our tax dollars are paid to commit murder for the benefit of businesses’ “right to profit”. Crazy idea, I know.
Now, to be fair, I’m biased towards this idea. I’m biased in the same sense that I’m biased towards the idea that the Earth revolves around the sun and that every society has its propaganda: these are basic, driving ideas to me that, to believe otherwise would require the reinterpretation of a vast sum of evidence. But it’s not out of the question.
But try having a rational conversation debating how much “good” covert US governmental agencies do in the world and it quickly becomes a psychological issue–not one based on the weight of the evidence or other reasonable reactions.
Anyway, sorry for emoting all over your website, but you’re talking sense. I don’t even know how I started getting your blogs to my email, but I look forward to them. Keep it up, please.
I131HCAM
I-131 Hawk Coffee Achiever Muhammad
I know what you mean, something I didn’t get into too much in my blog regarding people’s communication skills and intellectual capacity is that no matter how many examples you give someone and no matter how logical you are they will never grow or change, that’s how it is and it is frustrating and sucks. It sucks worse if they are in power positions and are in control of the state of the world. I hear ya. I always thought popularity contest was a good name for an album. Life is all about your personality not your skill and efficiency. I hate that. Has any hone ever gotten hired because they seemed like a cool person to “have a beer with?” I don’t know any, oh except for one guy whose doing the most important job out there!
Breath
Dude,
Rule 62: Don’t take yourself so damned serious…you’re just not that good…nobody is!
Mike did you say Body Axe spray?
I’ll get a case and let you know if its true
Hey Geoff
not sure who rule # 62 applies to..but I’m a girl ( Truthaholic = Sherrie Adams) and I’m an idea person…don’t take the wind out of my sail
Since it looks we can all agree to disagree; nobody doesn’t like Sara Lee.
OMG, I so know what you mean. No, I don’t think for a second you are being unreasonable. It just gets a bit frustrating when you are given the gift of preception and solutions just come natural. Although I believe we MUST remain spiritualy fit in order to stay away from this way of thinking toward others, you mentioned this is the way people have thought for so long, admitting the possibilty of not handeling a situation in a better fashion makes them innately feel less than. We know thier not but they are spiritualy unfit. Pray for them and for the sake of God, rememeber we are human and fearful by nature. I believe they are picking up on you vibes which perpetuates things to cause them to be defensive. We MUST seek to understand not be understood.
God Bless!!
Hi Pat
Fear perpetuates defensive behavior. You’re right! I wish they could have the emotional maturity or the wherewithal to learn how to be more mature so they could have a better life and of course not annoy me so much…lol.
When you walk away from an unproductive discussion– both parties should be reflecting and asking what went wrong. Since it always takes 2 to tango I’m sure they are picking up on my impatient vibes and feeling pressured to be quick. You’re right. They don’t have the faculties or the emotional advancement to keep up with someone who is adept. I should probably pull myself back, tone my self-assuredness down, be more understanding as to make them more comfortable. You’re right. I will try this next time.
Thanks
“People convinced against their will, are of the same opinion still.” Love that.
Anyway, maybe people are actually using you as a sounding board and really don’t want your solution. Also, sounds like you have some control issues – the argument isn’t going your way – the other people are idiots. I think you need to settle down before your give yourself an ulcer:)
Hi Ronny
I don’t have control issues. Impatient and critical? Yes. I like when an arguement is constructive and productive, organized and direct. I would like people’s ego to take a back seat when a problem needs a solution. It is not effective to yell or bring up sub-points as to deflect the other from the point. I can’t relate when someone is basing decisions on emotion and ignoring logic or changing the subject every time a solution is offered. They aren’t evolved enough to say no, that solution sucks ass because…bla bla bla think of something else! That would be fine, but changing the subject has got to stop. I can’t relate when they don’t even know WHY they feel a certain way or WHY they are uncomfortable answering questions that are pro problem solving.
I guess people are having a problem with me calling others who are illogical, self unaware and unevolved, idiots but let’s see, if these people aren’t idiot’s who is?
I admit this blog was a bit harsh. Don’t let the fact that I rudely call them idiots distract from the point that they actually are. People who behave this way need to grow up and be level about things and realize when they aren’t people think they are idiots! That’s the reality, the truth!.
Respond don’t react
I think it’s great to get OPINIONS of others, but aren’t we all sounding out? Control issues LOLOLOL, don’t WE all.
Are people asking your advice or are you interjecting at random? You are and have always been a fixer Sherri, but some people just need a sounding board.
My husband can be the same way. He has learned to truly listen, state that he wants to help but doesn’t know how and CAN he do anything to help.
Hey Beavis
Well, I wasn’t talking about any one particular incident. I am referring to people who announce that they have an issue or a problem to me directly and are either asking me to help or bitching about how I’m not already helping, though this is the first I’m hearing about it and am willing to totally help and would have sooner had they asked.
Yeah, I don’t try to “fix” people anymore. I’m too busy to waste time. Most people are complacent and don’t even learn from their own mistakes let alone hearing about mine as a way to prevent future mistakes in their lives. I don’t even bother unless they seek me out or I have a relationship with them and there are problems that are preventing progress.
I’m seeing that some of you are disliking that I call these people who argue poorly and ineffectively- idiots, morons etc… Here’s the deal if an adult behaves in an illogical, self unaware and unevolved way, and then tries to communicate then I will have a hard time relating to them. I will find it difficult respecting someone who doesn’t care or find it necessary to do their introspective, internal work before going out into the world. I think it’s extremely selfish to waste other peoples time and to expect everyone else to have to be the anchor of the conversation because they are emotionally behind and deficient of the skills necessary to have productive and healthy relationships. If these people aren’t idiot’s who are?
I admit this blog was a bit harsh. Don’t let the fact that I rudely call them idiots, distract from the point that they actually are. People who behave this way need to grow up and be intellectual about things and realize when they aren’t people think they are idiots! That’s the reality, the truth!.
S
it seems to me that,when we are presenting our side,befor you,r done.thay,re NOT listening,thay,re working on the rebutal..SO thay are working with half of the info..how can a solution EVER be??It really is a fools game that we play..The need to belong is all it is..maybe hee!hee!!
beatels hard days nite
Hey Wes
close..it is The Beatles..care to try again?
Wes,
The song is “Revolution” you can ask S for the CD, I have one, Ms S is awesome
Truth, I agree with everything you’ve said in your blog. I am elated that there are other logical beings in this world besides myself. I encounter individuals who can’t argue themselves out of a paper bag! And they get upset when you point out that they are illogical assholes.
i observe ppl as well and this state of, what i like to call, “stupidity” is common in most ppl.
I have yet to come up reasons for this but not to worry i’ll be continuing the research.
Keep up the good work.
Hey Jason
Yeah I agree. I know it’s not “nice” to call people stupid or morons but it’s also not nice for people to walk around unprepared and expect the smart people to figure it all out.
Let me know how your research goes.
Curious…what do you do for a living?
S
Hey S
I attend university for a living……well at least for one more year. Then i join the batch of what i like to call the “qualified unemployed” until something comes my way.
Hey sherri,
Thanks for the feedback. It is nice to be able to sound out a thought (tool) and have someone be willing to utilize it. Imagine that? LOL Something I was taught.
It sounds like you have met my girlfriend ! LOL!!!
Truthaholic, I agree with your comments on We all want to change your head!, I am dealing with a friend who practices the same tactics, I went from thoughts that she is psychologically damaged to she was running game with me, however one fact is she had been in an abusive relationship in which she was beaten and constantly told that she was stupid! I worked to get her past this emotional blockage and ran into the very same characteristics that you spoke of, she never apologizes when shes wrong in fact she says nothing, but she holds you hostage if you don’t apologize to her when you are wrong and punishes with the constant threat of ending the relationship! I am constantly letting her go!